Firefighter Survival Starts With Us

Firefighters don’t usually lose the job in one dramatic moment. More often, we lose years of health one “small” choice at a time: skipping SCBA during overhaul, riding back covered in soot, storing dirty turnout gear in a personal truck, or treating decontamination like optional paperwork. We brought on Chief Billy Goldfeder to say the quiet part out loud and to give you practical ways to protect your people without losing the mission mindset that makes this work matter.

We talk firefighter cancer prevention with zero sugarcoating, including what strong officers must enforce, why culture beats posters, and how PFAS concerns in AFFF foam and turnout gear should change daily habits right now. Chief Goldfeder breaks down what we can control today: wear the mask, get the grime off your gear, stop wearing gear when you don’t need it, and keep contaminants out of the cab and out of your home. He also points to grant funding and community support to help departments secure extractors, washer and dryer systems, and second sets of gear.

We go beyond cancer into firefighter fitness, COVID-19 realities, and leadership lessons that apply whether you wear a white helmet or not. Chief Goldfeder closes with a memorable warning about giving advice outside your qualifications, and why “staying in your lane” can prevent career-ending personnel fallout.

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DISCLAIMER

The views, information, or opinions expressed by guests during this podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of AFSO21's Weekend Wrap-up Podcast and its hosts. Furthermore, any views or opinions expressed by guests are their own alone and do not reflect the opinions, beliefs, or official policies of any organization, institution, or employer they may be associated with or employed by. 

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• Email us at podcast@afso21.com

As always, keep supporting your local fire and emergency services, stay safe, and keep on listening!

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Welcome everybody to AFSO 21 Radio. You're listening to the weekend wrap up. Here on AppSode 21 Radio. I'm your host, Kevin Ferrara, and folks, as we continue to recognize Firefighter Cancer Awareness Month, over the next hour you're going to hear from someone known throughout the fire service that's extremely passionate about firefighter health

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_02 0:34

and safety. Folks, a few days ago, Chief Billy Goldfetter of Firefighter Close Call's Home of the Secret List sat down with me in the weekend wrap-up to share his thoughts on issues affecting the fire service, in particular firefighter survival. So, folks, get ready to hear from the one and only Chief Billy Goldfetter, shooting from the hip, as he stated prior to recording, chatting with us one-on-one. All right, folks, welcome to the podcast. Our guest today is none other than Chief Billy Goldfetter. For those that aren't familiar, uh Chief has been a very strong advocate of fire protection, emergency service safety for many years. So, Chief, welcome to the show. If you could please uh introduce yourself to the listeners.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Well, hey, uh, thanks so much for having me. Uh, it's uh it's a pleasure to spend some time chatting, which is what I love to do. And uh I've been a uh firefighter since 1973, an officer since 1980, and a chief since 1982. I'm a deputy chief at the Loveland Sims Fire Department, which is outside of Cincinnati. We do about 5,000 runs a year. We're part of a very uh engaged area of fire service with automatic mutual aid, box alarms, and all that. And I'm very proud of where we've come in this area to where we were when I when I came here in in the uh 90s. But uh it's very, very collaborative, very positive, and the public's winning because of that. I've had an interest in firefighter survival since the uh 70s, and maybe we'll talk talk about that later as we get into the discussion about where that came from and what sort of lit my fire. I'm a dad to five kids, and I'm a poppy to six grandkids, and they are my priority.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Nice, nice. So, you know, you you talked about, you know, you know, hoping to get into how you got started, you know, in all of this. So, you know, one thing I always ask my guests, you know, who or what influenced you to become uh, you know, not just a firefighter, but then subsequently becoming so involved in firefighter health and safety throughout, I I think I think you expand beyond firefighters. I think you dabble a little bit in all of emergency services.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

So the interest started, I don't know when, I was adopted. I was born in Chicago and then adopted by a family in New York, and I consider them my family, of course. And I was actually born in the old Cook County Hospital in Chicago in an area for unwed moms. And it turns out the past fire commissioner of Chicago, Jose Santiago, was born three weeks separate from me in the same ward. So maybe that's what

The Moment He Chose Firefighting

SPEAKER_00 3:15

something was going on in that ward that time that we were interested in becoming firefighters or whatever. But as I grew up as a little boy in Long Island, uh there was this guy that would come to wax the floors of our house. Now, most of you have no idea what waxing a floor means because they're all preset these days. But we had a guy who would come twice, uh I think once a year and he would wax the floors. Now, picture this: I'm three or four years old and I'm riding on his waxing machine. Today nobody would allow that because you know he'd get sued or something. So he would let me ride on this waxing machine. And then when he was done, he would walk out to his car to put the machine away. His name was Danny, and I have a picture of him in my office. Now you got to know this is going back 63 years ago, and he still influences me. And when he put the waxing machine away in the back of his woody station wagon, I noticed a set of boots, a black coat, and a helmet. And I said, Danny, what's that? He says, I'm a firefighter. I said, I thought you work on houses. He says, I'm also a volunteer firefighter. And that's the earliest memory I have because from that point on, and I've had no interest in anything else. I mean, I'm a musician, I've been a drummer since fourth grade. I obviously am married, so I have some interest in relationships, things like that. But it I'm I'm ate up, I've been ate up, I don't care, I make no apologies for it. I'm as gung ho now at 65 years old as when I was at five years old when the whistles blew.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

So I think that's probably the earliest influence. And and and so to further, so let's jump ahead to the firefighter survival issue. So growing up in Long Island in the Great Neck, Manhasset, Lakeville area, I hung around the firehouse, maybe more than some of the old timers would have liked me to back in those days. But that was my whole thing. It's all I was interested in. So I got old enough, I joined, became a firefighter, and there was the death of a firefighter in a neighboring district. It was a captain

Early Line Of Duty Deaths

SPEAKER_00 5:23

with the Garden City Park Fire Department who responded to a van on fire. And the van had compressed gas tanks inside the van. And they exploded during the fire and immediately killed this captain. In that five-year period, we lost some firefighters at a synagogue fire in Valley Stream. We lost two firefighters in Beth Page at a pool supply facility. We lost a captain in Wantaw when the apparatus rear-ended in Ariel, all in this period of time. And the common denominator that struck me in not just, of course, the deaths of these good people, but was, and very innocently, was how everyone accepted it. Like, hey, that's just part of the job. Things will happen. And I think that really stuck in my mind, excuse me for one second. That really stuck as the regularness of it or the acceptance of it. And I started thinking to myself, now back then you thought only to yourself, and you did not speak out loud about any time a firefighter was hurt or killed, because that was the culture. It had to happen, it was part of the job, it was God's will, all those things. And I started questioning that in my mind, thinking, I don't know that it's always that way. I don't know that these all have to happen. And that's really what started my interest.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Nice, nice. Well, we, you know, I appreciate, I think all my listeners appreciate, and and you know, I I think really the the the fire service appreciates your involvement, you know, over the years. And and, you know, to be honest, you know, thank thank God you got involved, you had that mentality to to say, you know, not not stand by and just say, that's just how it is, you know, to have the forethought and say, look, we got to stop this. And that's that's sort of how, you know, I came to be with the podcast. You know, my background, you know, I started at age 16. So I remember some of the old, the old school, you know, firefighters that some guys were still wearing the rubber boots, you know, the the the you know three-quarter length coats, and and and they were smoke eaters. I mean, that that's how it was back then, and that's you know, that's how it was.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

We we at the at the busiest time when I was on Long Island, we did about 60 work in fires a year, and that was pretty good, pretty good number for us. And we used to compare how long we could blow our noses to have black snots, see how bad it was, you know, and that was the rubber pull-up shortcoat. All my all my pants had a ring of black around them, and that was a that was a source of pride for us. Yeah, yep. You know, and let me just Kevin, let me make a comment in here because sure I want to get past this. Make no mistake about it, there are firefighters who have to die. There are line of duty deaths that are very justified and were very necessary, yeah. As as painful as that is. When you know, Kevin Apuzio in East Franklin, New Jersey has a lady in his arms and the floor collapses. Howie Carpluck in New York City with his proby would not leave his proby. And there are many

Necessary Risk Versus Avoidable Death

SPEAKER_00 8:39

other examples of that. So, especially to your younger listeners, and I know it seems this way, everything in this generation seems to be has to be one way or the other. Well, this is not that answer. This is a gray area. There are some necessary deaths, and there are many unnecessary deaths. And we need to understand what those differences are. When you get ejected from your apparatus because you blew a red light and and and you're slammed into by a truck because you you blew a red light, that was avoidable.

unknown 9:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

But if you're going into a dwelling and you've got reports of kids trapped or somebody trapped and you lose your life, that was necessary. That's what we do. We we cannot ever forget that responsibility. So sorry, I didn't want to derail you, but that's that's an important point that I always like to make. It's not all black and white. Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

And and and I I truly appreciate that because I, you know, I think that's something you know, a lot of our our young guys and girls, you know, in the fire service, they're they're not hearing that, or they're not hearing it as much. I mean, that that should be something echoed every day, you know, and and and truly, you know, appreciated and comprehended because I mean that let's be honest.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

The target is zero line of duty deaths, but let's be realistic. This is a risky job, and we need to take risk at times.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

Exactly. Exactly. So, Chief, you know, one one thing you've talked about, you know, we've we've talked about here in the podcast is firefighter cancer rates. And, you know, cancer, you know, unfortunately, you know, it's it's it's surpassing heart disease, you know, as the leading cause of firefighter line of duty fatalities in the United States. And you discussed this topic, you know, back in March of 2020 on on the Fire Rescue One website. So, you know, first and I'm involved with, you

Cancer Reality And Zero Tolerance

SPEAKER_02 10:30

know, being being a retired military, I'm sure you've heard, you know, with with ACF foam with PFAS. That seems to be the acronym of 2020 and 2021 now. So, you know, what what are your thoughts about PFAS and its its linkage to cancer, you know, and firefighting foam? We're hearing that it, you know, it it is or it could be in turnout gear now. And to follow up on that, what has changed or needs to change in your view to prevent emergency responders, families, and citizens with our communities from being unnecessarily exposed to PFAS?

SPEAKER_00 11:10

So let's start with the overall cancer issue first. And the fact is that most cancer exposures we we can be managing. We see the pictures every day, firefighters covered in soot, uh, laughing off the mask. Uh, we don't need that's all bullshit. I mean, let's not be stupid. And at that point, you need a strong officer that takes a zero tolerance attitude. You need a chief that has a zero tolerance attitude. I'm very proud that in our area, not just my department, but in our area, I'll I'll I'll give anybody a hundred dollar bill, you'd find one of our firefighters in any of the four or five departments we operate with, operating without a mask, not wiping down after, not we've learned because some of our own have had cancer, uh, some survived and some did not. So that's the overall. Uh, let's stop kidding ourselves. The greatest issue of firefighters getting cancer is us. Uh, we can fix that. Okay, so that's number one. We need to understand it. Number two, the PFAS issue is one of obvious concern. And and my my opinion is I don't believe that any of our manufacturers, uh, Lion, Fire Dex, Honeywell, Globe, any of them have any malice whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Now, I cannot speak for the makers of those materials they use. Those are big companies, and some of them have some pretty nasty history of not doing the right thing. Yeah. But as far as the manufacturers, I don't believe that any of them, and I also believe all of them are working with those who make the materials and saying, hey, we need a better solution for this. Now, given the choice, I wear my gear well before now. I'm not gonna wear my gear, but do you need to wear your gear around the firehouse? Do you need to wear it when you go out for the meal? No, take it off when you're not using it, wash it after you're using it. And I believe in in in time shorter than longer, we're gonna see gear that will provide a better, a better level of non, a better level of cancer protection that also does not reduce what those materials are protecting us from. In other words, we're concerned about PFAS in the gear. Well, that is being or those materials are being used to keep us from getting soaking wet when operating. Now, we don't want to get soaking wet. So, what can we do between now and the new materials coming out? And that is wash your gear, take it off when you don't need to, and take care of it. And that's what all the manufacturers are saying. I just read something by Lyon. They have a whole list of things that you need to do, and it makes perfect sense. So just do that. But to kick and scream that our gear is killing us without acknowledging our own behaviors are killing us more and longer is silly, my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

So what would what would you say? You know, here I'm here in Central PA. You know, I started in a volunteer fire service, did my military stint, come back in. I'm I'm, you know, with a volunteer company now. And, you know, fortunately, we, you know, my company down here, you know, we we do practice good measures in in terms of limiting exposure, washing our gear, washing our masks down. But I've seen a lot of fire, you know, volunteer firefighters, you know, throughout my past 33 years that toss their dirty

PFAS, Turnout Gear, And Decon

SPEAKER_02 14:27

gear in the back of their truck, take their gear home, set it down, kids are playing with it, you get that cross-contamination. What would you say to them, you know, in terms of implementing some sort of policy, whether it's company-wide or even a personal policy, say, hey, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna start doing this because I'm looking across the dinner table and I see my family that I'm unnecessarily exposing. You know, what what do you have to say to to those those folks? Don't be a moron.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

I don't know, yeah, I'll speak their language. Forever I had dirty gear in the back of my buggy. Forever I had my kids in car seats or even before car seats, they just used to play. I get it now. Thank God so far my kids are good, right? Yeah, but also when I was doing that, the carcinogens that we were fighting fires in even 25, 30, 35 years ago were less than they are today. It's much worse even today. Every day there's new chemicals introduced, and we're fighting fires in those chemicals. So, first of all, there is money out there for second sets of gear. Shame on any department that's not applying for those grants. The grants are out there. Last year they had extra money left over because not enough fire departs apply for grants. So apply for the damn grants and get them, okay? Get you everybody two sets of gear. You can you can also get washers, and I would be challenged, I would challenge any department that there's not a business in your community that would not buy you an extractor or a washer and dryer system. There's somebody out there. And if you're listening to this podcast and you say that your department just can't get one, reach out to me through Kevin, he can get you in touch with me, and I'll help identify sources to get you that. You know, it's the old where there's a will, there's a way. And even if it's you just lay your gear out and wash it down when you get back and dry it, right? That's the most bare, most bare sense of doing it. But it it it it's it's like you you really wouldn't think these days, other than a rare occasion of operating without an SCBA, you wouldn't think these days of going to a fire without a thermal imagery, and it needs to apply the same exact way. We need to think that when our gear is filthy, we need to get the crap off of there because it's gonna impact our kids, our grandkids, or ourselves. You know, it's all fun and games until one day you go pissed and you piss blood, and then you go find out it's due to his exposure as a firefighter, and then you got to deal with cancer. You don't want that.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Right. Right. So, you know, Chief, like I, you know, like I said, you know, for the past 33 years, you know, I've been, you know, I've been in the fire service, and really I'd say within the past 10 years, I've really ramped up my passion about you know health and safety being a priority in the fire service. Because I've like I said, you know, I've I've watched, you know, from being a volunteer, you know, through the military, we're a little bit more disciplined in the military, a little bit more rigorous in terms of physical fitness and everything. But you know, for and

Volunteer Gear Habits And Grants

SPEAKER_02 17:28

and we've seen, you know, throughout throughout fire departments, whether they're you know, mostly career, they have these structured health and wellness programs. That that was a big push just before I retired in 2017 from the Air Force. With with regards to that, you know, a lot of the volunteer services, they don't have these structured health and wellness programs. And and let's be honest, you know, there's some firefighters out there that are questionable, whether it be age, physical characteristics. It's like, you know, sometimes you just got to ask, why are they there? You know, we appreciate their their their passion to serve the community, but you know, are they putting themselves at risk? Are they putting others at risk? So, what would you say to our volunteer emergency responders out there? What should they do or or encourage them to do enterprise-wide, you know, within their organization or the volunteer service as a whole to make sure they're prepared, others, you know, within their organization are prepared to respond to an emergency. And of course, you know, the main goal, return home. Everybody comes home.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

So weight is a challenge for anybody, for especially those who have the problem. I was well over 300 pounds for many, many years. I struggle with it every day. I'm hovering at 210 for a long time now, and I'm pretty proud of that number, being 6'1. Could I do better? Yeah, but to me, this is a struggle just to stay where I'm at. I walk two miles a day and I just do what I'm supposed to do because I want to be a firefighter as long as I can. Yeah. So that's often what I

Fitness, Weight, And Personal Responsibility

SPEAKER_00 19:04

look at first is if you love being a firefighter, because I mean, if you can't get out of your own way, if you're out of breath before you even put your air pack on, uh you're you're again again. I'm not worried about what your liability is to each other. And we talked about that some other time. But what about yourself? I mean, you you you need to find out what's going to help you get that weight change, get that fitness going. Find something you like. I hate fitness stuff. But you know what? I love going for a walk, and I take a good walk with my wife, and we do it every morning and every evening, and it's made a difference. Uh instead of eating a pint of ice cream at night, I found some low-fat, uh no sugar added ice cream. So I'm still meeting the things that I enjoy in my life, and it tends to work for me. You got to find out what works for you. I don't believe there's a single firefighter that's obese or overweight that wants to be that way. They're just trying to figure out how they get out of that.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

There's a book, Firefighter Functional Fitness sets out by a Pennsylvania fire chief, actually. And that's a phenomenal book. But kind of just talk to yourself about it. What do you want to do? Is it based on, I mean, I used to never weigh myself, but I would gauge myself whether my pants still fit or not. If they're still fitting, I'm fine, right? Yeah. Find something that works for you. It's a very personal issue. Much of issues related to food or tied to emotional issues and things like that. So, hey, I'm I'm with you, whoever you might be, whether your nickname is chubby or tiny or skinny or whatever they call you. The fact is, you'd probably rather be in a little bit better shape to be a better firefighter, so you'll last longer. So find out what works for you, but you forget all the other stuff. Find one thing and just start doing that.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

And then the first day is gonna suck, the second day is a little better, the third day is even, and then one day your pants are a little looser, or you're maybe your stomach got filled a little quicker, and over time, that's so that's my answer to that. And this is not just volunteer, there's a lot of overweight career fire, it's it's not all, you know. So that's that's kind of my response to that. And and let me address this and tie it back to what we talked about cancer as well. Okay. So, whether it's cancer or fitness or heart attack, the thing is, odds are it's not gonna happen to you today. Oh, if I breathe a little smoke and I spit some crap out, I'm fine today. Now, keep that in mind. I challenge you to find any fire department out there that runs on any highway that's not blocking today, that's not using cones, that's not pre warning. Because we know we've seen firefighters get run over. We've seen it. So we personalize, hey, that could happen to me today. Yeah. So we respond quickly to what could happen today. But things that are more long term, getting cancer, gaining weight, having a heart attack, that's not going to happen today. I'm fine. I'll have another Twinkie, right? Yep. So it's it's two different challenges. And also your boss, the chief, your captain, lieutenant, whatever, cannot stop you from shoving that Twinkie in your mouth. They can make you put your air pack on, they can make you put block the highway. So you've got to tie some personal responsibility into it. And again, if you love being a firefighter, find something that's going to help you thin down just a little bit at the time. And it really does work out. And honestly, if you're a guy firefighter, it's a whole lot easier than it is for our girls in this place. Women are very challenging with weight issues. I don't mean across the board, but just generally women have much more challenges to lose weight than men do. So understand that the next time you're looking at a firefighter that's obese or overweight, and it's someone you're friends with, maybe you think about, hey, how can I help you with this? Let's go get a soda, but we're both having diet sodas today, or we're going to drink water or whatever. A little bit of that really goes a long way.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

You know, I've I've always said, Chief, you know, it's in the fire service, our our most value asset is ourselves, is the personnel. And, you know, you talk about, you know, it takes a little bit of time here and a little bit of time there. Well, you know, for me, I think if we invest that time up front, the the payback is going to be exponential in the end because you're going to you're going to extend your life. You're going to extend your ability to continue serving the public, continue, you know, doing your passion, you know, in the in the fire service.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

So I and it's it starts at the top. I mean, the boss has got to set the examples and the deputies were all. I mean, there there was a fire department in in western Pennsylvania decades ago. The fire chief ran aerobics classes in the firehouse. And it became a fun thing that everybody loved doing. So find something. And you know, I had a captain years ago that worked for me when I was in Virginia, and he was Danny Corner, probably one of the finest fire officers ever. He was just one of those people. Yeah. And he had a crew that didn't want to work out. So he wasn't the kind of guy to whip you or nothing like that. But he said, you know, I got to convince these folks there's got to be a better way to do this. So obviously through training, he was able to prove to them they're not in the shape they need to be, climbing ladders, stretching lines. But then one day he loads everybody up on the engine company. He goes out to a subdivision, he gets everybody off the rig and he tells the driver to drive two miles down the road and wait there. We're going to walk and meet you. And he forced everybody to walk to the truck. And the next day he did it again. And that's the kind of leadership we need.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

So, Chief, the you know, the the big thing that that really impacted the world is is COVID-19. You know, we've seen it literally taken a toll on on you know countries around the world and emergency responders. Sorry. Nope, that's that's all right. So, you know, just just you know, repeating here, you know, COVID-19 has, you know, really taken a

COVID-19 Risk On Duty And Off

SPEAKER_02 25:26

toll on you know emergency responders, the fire service, you know, like I said, not not just here in the United States, but across the globe. So, you know, with with the concerns of exposure, cross-contamination, you know, with with COVID-19, and and I've seen it, you know, a little bit here locally, is that you know, it's likely caused some emergency responders and those considering joining the service to reconsider. It's like, hey, you know, I you know, I don't want to get near that stuff, I don't want to, you know, risk it. What are your thoughts on, you know, in in your area, and you know, how how has COVID-19 affected you know your local emergency responders, or you know, how do you see it affecting the the fire service as a whole?

SPEAKER_00 26:11

So it's affected all of us. You know, we I I got my first shot two weeks ago. I'm waiting for my second one now. Okay. You know, so just what I'm able to do about it. I I think you're more apt to get COVID based upon your off-duty behaviors uh versus your on-duty. On duty, you're wearing gloves, you're washing up, you're wearing a mask, you're sort of forced to follow that. Uh, and then off-duty, you go amongst the circle of friends who you think you can trust.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

And you spend the weekend partying on a boat with a dozen people, and next thing you know, people got COVID. I'm not saying there's not on duty exposures to COVID. Of course there are. We know that.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

And we've lost well over 100 emergency responders so far this year. I think we're probably up to 130, 140 right now. So on duty, we know we're doing. I think our off-duty behavior needs to be remodified and thought about. And look, this is not a political issue. This is not if you like this guy or that guy. Come on, gang. Yeah. Who knows better than we do about the value of prevention? I mean, that's why. I mean, if you don't want to wear a mask, all right, then fine, I'll take your SCBA away and your bunker coat. You don't need that shit anymore, right? Oh no, I need that. Well, why? Because I'm going to be exposed. Well, same thing. Yep. So, you know, listen to the doctors and listen to the medical people. And I'm sure there's people listening to your podcast and don't believe in science and all that. And but my answer back is well, if you're a if you've trained in CPR, you believe in science.

unknown 27:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

If you're trained as an EMT, you believe in science. If you pull a hose on and put water on the fire, you believe in science. That's where all that came from. So don't make it political. I don't care who you support. That's America. You support who you like.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

But take care of yourselves, your family, and those around you. And look, I've lost some friends to COVID. And I've got a number of folks who survived it. And it was living hell.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

You don't want that. And it's not just for the old folks anymore either. I put out on firefighter closed calls to the Seeker List, a list every couple of days of five or six responders. And we're talking people in their 30s and 40s.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

This is, I mean, there was one chief he was 87 or something. And, you know, I hope I'm able to be a chief in 87, but I kind of think I probably shouldn't be. But that's, you know, whatever. That's everybody, well, you know, he may be the only person in that community who provides a service. Yeah. But there are things we can do to prevent bad things from happening to us and others. And we need to do that. So that's my thoughts. Okay. Yeah, we could be doing much better. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

So, you know, one thing that you had talked about earlier in terms of leadership, you know, our leaders have to sort of, you know, take, take charge, you know, whether it be, you know, preventing, you know, exposure to certain chemicals, you know, you know, physical fitness, all of that. You know, one question I've I've I've heard, you know, some of our listeners talk about is, you know, we we look at, you go into almost any firehouse, you look at the helmets,

Leadership Beyond The White Helmet

SPEAKER_02 29:10

various colors depending on where you're at, what country, what department, anything like that. But at the end of the day, pretty much every firehouse has a has a white helmet in there. Signifies a leader, signifies fire chief, line officer. Do we have to count on the white helmets being the leaders, the the quote, leaders of the department? I've seen, I've seen firsthand some really great individuals lower in the ranks in the firehouse, sort of get intimidated. They're afraid to speak up, they're afraid to you know step forward and put their neck out there in a leadership role because they don't have the white helmet. Do you think, you know, I I understand, you know, white helmets signify, especially on a fire ground, who's white helmet? White helmet signifies white paint.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Okay. I mean, it after that, it's you know, who's wearing the helmet and stuff. So what happens is when you have a weak coaching staff, the quarterback and others have to step into roles that normally they wouldn't have to. You'd rather your quarterback focus on being a quarterback. When you've got a good coaching staff in your fire department, each member can then focus in their area of responsibility and not have to worry about filling gaps of leadership. When we have failed leadership, either nothing happens and the organization in the community fails, or folks are forced into positions of leadership, such as union leaders or association leaders, in roles that either they'd rather not fill or shouldn't be filling. But it's sort of it's sort of like the water sort of goes wherever it needs to fit in, you know, and and and follows that flow, the path of least resistance. Now, a good leader is going to use those folks in positions so that leader doesn't have to do as much. I mean, I I don't do a whole hell of a lot anymore. I have we got some amazing people. Yeah. And uh and and my role of the fire anymore is getting there with my piece of paper and pencil and radio and saying, what do you need? Uh because we got some phenomenal officers, including my boss above me and and many of the uh subordinates as well. So leadership now, but if I get to an incident and it's not going well, I'm bringing what I need to to fill in that gap. Absolutely. But I have the white helmet. What you do, what you want to try and do is if you've got a great leadership team and the white helmet is not performing or is not there, then you train people to move into those positions. It's when the white helmet is there, but people below that have to force themselves in to make change or or to impact an incident. That's the problem. And it's a fine line. I think that, you know, when I was a young officer in a whole different generation, I had some chiefs that I worked for who out, hey Goldie, what do you think? And other chiefs where I'd suggest something, you go back to your engine. Well, okay, well, you know, yeah. Uh, and and that's really where I learned that I I need to understand if I'm having if I'm not having success in making change, then I need to readjust and identify where I can have effect and where I can make change. And we can't change an entire fire department by ourselves. So identify what let's say you're the officer of engine 21, then let's just focus on engine 21 being the best it can. And the other things will take care of themselves if that makes sense. Otherwise, you make yourself nuts. I don't know if that answered your question or not.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Appreciate it. So, Chief, I mean, you know, what 2021, we're we're just now getting started. You know, it it could be a rocky start. Hopefully it's not, but what do you what do you have or what do you see on the agenda or the horizon for fire protection emergency services in 2021? What what do you what do you want to to start up? What do you want to continue? What do you want to see finish this year?

2021 Outlook And Trust In Service

SPEAKER_00 33:24

So we're at a scary time in the next couple of weeks. I think that uh we're we're all kind of a little concerned. Personally, I'm trying to figure out what people don't have in America that they want. I'm very patriotic. I've had a flag in front of my house since the first house I've ever had. I I really believe that what when some radicals do what they do and go after the heart of our country like we saw last week, that's a problem. And I I do believe that's going to be taken care of. This is not the 1700s with uh uh the British and and and issues like that. I mean, where people want to have uh their guns, they can. No one's stopping that. Right. People want to have a right to for freedom, you can. Just can't help hurt anybody else. Right. I'm scratching my head a little bit because I always try to keep a very open mind on all sides to understand what's what's going on here. You know, if it's because you don't like black people or Hispanic people or stuff like that, well, you know, that's kind of what America's made of, is our doors are open, and of course there's a process to get in, and I believe in all that. Yeah. But that's America, man. That's what we are. So that's just kind of my personal feelings. And and I think we're we're gonna be okay. I think we're gonna see, yeah, you know, I'm also torn one week we want to defund the police, the next week where the cops are getting taken over here. So it's kind of that that kind of thing. It's a tough time. Yeah. Uh the country has voted, they've made their decision, and let's see where it goes. Yeah. Uh, whatever president we've always had, and and I'd like some and I just dislike some, but we have to respect the fact that this is the president. Let's give it a shot and see how it works out.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

You know, now to move forward with that. What am I looking for in 2021? I'll make this real simple for you. I just want firefighters to give a shit. That's all I want. Every you give me any problem, and I can fix it if you give me firefighters and care.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

So that's my focus. That's my interest. That's what I've been pushing. Just give me some people who care. I don't want if you don't care, you don't want to be here, go home, quit, resign, go away, go work in a bakery. I don't care. Just go away from me because I don't need your negative energy.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

As I mentioned before, and I'm I'm as enthusiastic now as when I was 16 years old. And I'm still quick out of bed, quick on the run, quick to whatever. And I'm not going to let anybody take that away from me. So you need to, you know, I want people to mentor, to guide. I work almost actually every officer around me is much younger than me. All the chiefs, and all the at least by five years, if not much more than that. And we've got some chiefs in our area: Goshen, Loveland, Sims, Mason, Deerfield, Hamilton Township, these areas we work in, this corner here. Phenomenal fire officers. They love it. They take courses, they study, they listen off duty. That's what we want. And that's what I want to see come forward. And with those kind of folks pushing that stuff, we're we're doing okay. We're pretty positive. Now, we're challenged with recruitment issues around here, and that's a national problem. But I just just give me firefighters who give a shit and give me officers who want that environment. And we're gonna be just fine. But it's a tough time. We uh we have some significant challenges between COVID and what we're they're predicting that we're gonna see riots in all the major cities and all the capitals, and we're gonna have to respond to that. Yeah, and that puts us in a position that we may not necessarily want. But people have got to trust us. And as we've seen, there's some accusations of firefighters being involved in breaking into the Capitol and doing that stuff. And you know, that that's not who we are. Apparently, it is for some of them. And if some of you are listening, you know, it's a free country, do what you want. But we also have to be able to know that these people can be trusted in our own communities. Yeah. And if you're angry at this type of person or that type of person, how are you going to function when you have to go to a fire or have an emergency involving this type of person or that type of person? To me, it's a time for real self-reflection for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Yeah, yeah, I I totally agree. One one issue that, not really an issue, but an initiative that you know we started to see in the Air Force, and and I'm seeing locally here is firefighters merging with law enforcement to provide support during tactical operations. There was a lot of pushback at first in the Air Force. Was that, you know, hey, we we're firefighters, they're cops,

Firefighters Supporting Tactical Operations

SPEAKER_02 38:21

everybody stay in their own swim lane. But at the end of the day, they started merging. Some firefighters got trained and everything. And like I said, you know, we're seeing that here locally. What are your thoughts on that? You know, in terms of firefighters, you know, usually, you know, at the rear of the rear of the team, you know, triage, treating victims, getting them out as quick as possible. Is that something that that's you see continuing within the fire service and and gaining more more momentum? Or is that, you know, what are your what are your thoughts on that, too.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

I think it depends on the community. I think if you're in some of the extreme left communities, you're gonna see a pull away from that. I think if you're in some of the right-wing communities, you're gonna see more of a push for that. Maybe, I don't know. But let's let's dig into that for a minute. I I think firefighters need to be there to be part of the response team when we have good, well-trained cops. That's the issue. It's not supporting it's put there. There are bad eggs out there, but there's many, many good eggs out there. Yeah. So it's up to the community leadership and the fire team to decide is this the kind of group we're gonna support? Are these cops who go through mental health training to support people who are having a mental crisis? Or is once a year they go to the range and is that their only training that they got? So who we support is based upon what we're supporting, I think, right? It's kind of like you respond mutual aid to a fire department, and that fire department's a disaster. You got to start scratching your head. Do I want to bring my people into that environment and drag them into that? And most times we want to go, but sometimes we need to think wait a minute, what do we got on ourselves into?

unknown 40:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

So I think that look, I'm a huge proponent of the police. We need the police of the United States of America. We're based upon laws, policies, procedures. Okay, but there's a there's some bad cops out there, and there needs to be systems in place to make sure that we have as many good cops as possible. Just like firefighters. There's look, we every week a firefighter set a fire. Firefighter uh assaulted a junior member in the firehouse. You know, that's people stuff. So good background checks, good supervision, all these things, good policy, training on the policy, enforcement of the policy, that tends to keep things and look, your military, what I just described is military.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

That's that's that's how things have to be operated. So should we be there in tactical gear as tactical medics supporting? Of course, because we have to not only we're not just taking care of the cops, we're helping take care of the civilian who got shot or whatever. But it has to be under an environment where everybody's qualified, everybody's trained, everybody's training, and there's a system of operating policies and procedures. For us just to put on vests and go Yahooing into shooting seats and stuff, no, absolutely not. No, and and look again, America is in a time right now where we're all looking, and the police are under a microscope. And and understand, in my opinion, we're talking about high 90% police officers are phenomenal. Yeah, I'm not new to this. I've been working with cops since the beginning, and there's a knucklehead from time to time. But overall, these are good people who want to do a good job, and we need to support them. Yep.

unknown 41:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

So as as we as we get to the close of the podcast here, Chief, our listeners, those that know you, I want to know, how do you maintain the amazing mustache?

SPEAKER_00 41:54

You're not gonna believe it, but I just spoke, I just spoke to some of my own crew and said your mustache is getting a little too long. Um, I don't know. I I I don't know even why I have a mustache. I really

Mustache Talk And Giving Back

SPEAKER_00 42:08

don't. I just have it. I've I've always always had an interest. I don't know. As a kid, I used to take my comb and put it under my nose. And it's just, I think I've seen what I look like without it, and it's pretty scary. So it's uh it's just I don't know, it's just it's just there, it's just a thing. And uh my wife loves it, and that's all that really matters, I guess. Yeah, my grandkids love to pull on it, but uh it's uh it's turned turned gray, it's white, going downhill like the rest of me. But it's just it's it's just uh a thing. I guess if you remember the old little rascals, Alfalfa had that hair that stuck up on the back of his head, so I have a muscular, I guess. But I've always had it and uh that's we we here in the podcast love it. How do I maintain it? I shampoo the damn thing. Can you imagine if you didn't clean it? You know, so I'll tell you a funny story. So uh if I eat ice cream, I turn the spoon upside down just to put the ice cream so it doesn't get in my mustache. So my grandkids growing up thought you had to turn the spoon upside down to get ice cream. Oh no. They don't turn the spoon upside down, and all the hell to be around on clam trout at night, it's very stuff like that. Anyway, that's I'm just look, I'm just I I'm I I'm just so lucky that for for a whole variety of reasons. I'm I have an opportunity to share my thoughts, and there's some people that enjoy listening to them, and I certainly enjoy sharing them. I'm I'm beyond blessed with the opportunity to impact change. And you know, that this is I actually had somebody come up to me and say, How do I get the notoriety? I said, I didn't that's not it. It's you gotta do good, you gotta give. Um you know, I sit on the IFC board of directors, and and we've had some significant. Challenges in the last year. And that's because a few people along the way have forgotten what they're there for. The kudos will always come along. I mean, I'm I'm yeah, I've got the one of the highest awards I ever received was the FDIC, Tom Brennan, and uh Lifetime Achievement Award. You don't just give that away. I mean when they called me and said I was getting it, I was blown away. Because I didn't set out today say, oh, one day I'm gonna get this. And my walls are filled with amazing and beautiful honors. But I don't change, and I haven't changed what I'm doing. It's just along the way. Somebody said, Oh, that's really cool. We'd like to give you something. And I'm thrilled. I was like, that's wonderful. Yeah. But do good. That it's so simple. Bruno used to say, be nice. Just be nice. Do good. Give a short, right? That's what we talked about today on your podcast. And and it'll all work out. And this is the good feeling, is the best gift, award, recognition, whatever. The other stuff's nice, but man, you you guys and gals on the podcast know when you go there and you're able to stop the fire in the one room, that's the best feeling in the world. Yep. If you can revive that baby or whatever, and and you know that that's what it's about. So there's no secret, there's no mystery, there's no hidden agendas here. This is what you get. I am me. And I'm just very, very lucky that in the beginning of my career, people told me to shut up. They didn't want my opinion. And now people pay me big bucks to give them their opinion, to give me my opinion, which is kind of cool. So anyway, that that's obviously I'm kidding, but I'm just very lucky and just love the job because it goes so fast.

SPEAKER_02 45:41

Yeah, and and and you're doing you're doing what you do for the right reasons. You know, it's you know, there's some folks out there, like you said, they want the notoriety, they want that plaque on the wall, they want, they want the fame and and and everything that goes with it. I think you you have a a broad view of your mission. I'm the same way, at least I hope. You know, I've I've followed you throughout my career. You know, your name has popped up. I'll be honest, you know, this is a dream to have you on the podcast and be able to talk to you. You need to improve upon your dreams.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

Well, no, this is this is a highlight. I appreciate that. And and you know, you gotta, and you're saying exactly the right things. Just find something you love and just do that, and the rest will come along. You know, you can't get a home run until you learn how to play baseball. Yep. And and you know, as you get better and you you improve, and one day maybe you're able to hit that first base and second base and stuff. But this is about having the heart of taking care of others and putting your money where your mouth is. I mean, you know, we we did the three pass-it-on series books, and we've raised tens of thousands of dollars for the National Form of Firefighters, the Chief Ray Downey Scholarship and the Firefighter Kids Support Network. When I reached out to 150 friends and asked them to write chapters in the book, I told them this is because we're doing a fundraiser. So you got to give back. And I'm I I've seen, especially lately, dealing with some challenges in some of the organizations I'm involved with. There's some people in leadership positions that are sort of forgot the mis forgot the mission.

unknown 47:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

And I feel it's my responsibility at this stage in my life to remind them what the mission mission is.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, like I said, you know, at the top of the podcast, you know, I appreciate what you've done throughout your career, what you're doing for the fire service. You're you're giving back, you're taking everything that that that you've been blessed with over the years and giving that back. And, you know, you're you're meant you're a mentor to so many individuals out there, myself included, a lot of my listeners.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

So, you know, like you know, we can do another podcast day, tell you all the screw-ups I've done in my career, too. And well, and all of those, I'll tell you, and and and the mistakes I've made in my career, and there's not lots, but there's some, and they're somewhere significant. Uh, they've helped mold me into being a better person, being a better boss, being a better chief. And so, you know, that's for the comment there is for those who do stumble. It's not the end of the world, right? Just a chance to learn. And and uh, and if you did make a mistake, for God's sakes, admit it and move on. Yeah, that's the other thing today. Yeah, I talk about people who want to give a shit. Also, how about taking responsibility? Yeah, made a mistake, own it, own it, yeah. Yep. So when are you gonna work on a when are you gonna work on a mustache?

SPEAKER_02 48:29

Are you you know I used to have a mustache, I shaved it because my my kid, my wife, my one driver's license photo, it looked like I was in the mob. And it's like, no, it's it does not look. I had when I first started in the air force, but it was yeah, it's it's no go. Now, my kid, you know, my my son, he he's planning on well, you know, he's a volunteer firefighter along with me, and he wants to go in the air force as a firefighter. So, you know, he's following dad's steps and everything, but yeah, he can he can handle a mustache pretty well. So, you know, if he'll he'll keep it in the family for me, though. It's just like my hair, you know. I used to have hair and I stayed to heck with it. I started. Jimmy Buffett says somebody stole my hair. Well, Chief, is there anything that you wanna you want to talk about that you're that you're you know, you're just like I got an opportunity here on the podcast. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Let me give you one one more thing. I sort of touched on it, but it's really I covered it and and pass it on three. It's in my first chapter, and I'm gonna share it again now. And I've been sharing it every chance I have. So obviously, we talked about the givership part. Uh, we want people who care and and care about anybody, not select people, and not even pretend to care about select people. If it's not in your heart to care and serve all, then find something else to do. There's nothing wrong with that. The other issue is the best advice I never got, the best advice

Stay In Your Lane With Advice

SPEAKER_00 50:01

I never got was to understand what your capabilities are and be able to identify when you are capable or qualified to do something and when you're not. Earlier in my career, uh as I promoted up and became a chief, I very much buy into the sisterhood and brotherhood aspect, although I I coined the frame years ago, BMA, brotherhood, my ass, because sometimes it bites us in the ass. You know, not everybody's your brother. It's just the way it is, some human nature stuff. But I really believe that. And and I had I got involved in a situation involving a male and a female firefighter who came to me for advice, and I thought the advice they were, they were go, they were dating or living together, whatever, and I gave them advice, and it turned around on me, and then they blame me for ruining their relationship and all that crap. And you know, oh silly me, I gave you my advice, right? But it it on a very serious note, unless you've got a card, a degree, or huge amounts of experience in something, don't provide your advice. And I'm not talking about the fire ground, I'm talking about in-quarters, which is where we have much of our risk these days with personnel issues, people being much more sensitive than they used to be. And I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I'm saying it's how it is. You you, as a young officer, will be come people will come to you and say, Hey, Lieutenant, what do you think about this hose load? You are qualified to talk about the hose load. Hey, Lieutenant, I was late last week. Okay, don't be late again. Hey, Lieutenant, my wife and I are having problems. Here's the number to EAP. That's the greatest advice I never got. Do not get yourself involved in personnel issues. No, picture yourself responding to an engine company on an engine company. You're the first responding engine. You're gonna size up the situation, and then immediately you're gonna decide whether what you have coming is capable of dealing with it, whether you want to reduce the response because it's not what it was dispatched as, or you want to greatly increase the response because you don't have the capability. So I'm not a I'm not a hazmat tick, I'm a hazmat minimum. Whatever I need to be a chief is hazmat, is what I have. I can't fill my head with much more. So I focus on I focus on the things that I focus on. I've got phenomenal people that respond with us on hazmat runs.

SPEAKER_01 52:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

If I pull up on a run, I have enough knowledge to know what we should and shouldn't do, and then I call the hazmat team in. There you go. If you want me to do a class on single family, low rise, multifamily strips, strip row stores, I'm your guy. You want me to do high rise, not me. No experience, no qualification. See what I'm saying? So know what you're qualified in, not what you think you are, but what something says you are. Okay, yeah, and when that firefighter comes to you with some advice issues. Hey, I'm thinking about getting my wife a new car. You think it's a good idea? Yeah, it's a great idea. You're not gonna hurt anything, right? But listen, Lieutenant, I'm having issues with my husband, and I really need your advice. You know, Mary, you're my sister here. I love you on the job. We do a great job together. I just don't know that I'm the right person to give you the advice. But here's a number to our counseling service, and that's so you're gonna send them to the hazmat team. Yeah, you're gonna send them to the experts. So that's my final word with you today. Whether you're on the scene of an emergency, but mostly when you're dealing with your personnel issues, stay in your lane. Know what your qualifications are, apply those qualifications. And if something doesn't say you're qualified, please think very hard whether or not you should be providing that advice. Because as much in your heart you want to try and help, in reality, you may be hurting them and hurting yourself at the same time. So that's that's my thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

And and that that's why you are a very wise man, too. You got you get stars, you get wives. Yep, yeah. Well, Chief, that that's gonna do it for this episode of the weekend wrap-up. You know, like I said, we we appreciate you being a guest on the show. I, you know, hopefully our listeners appreciate it. I'm sure they do, you know, around the world. Absolute pleasure. This was fun. I love chatting. I mean, I I could do this all day. I I I can I can sense that. And yeah, we we appreciate it. So, folks, that that's gonna do it for this week, uh, the weekend wrap-up. And you've been listening to Chief Billy Goldfetter, our our guest for this episode. So,

Closing, Resources, And Milestones

SPEAKER_02 54:50

again, thanks, Chief. Absolutely a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 54:52

Check us out at firefighterclosecalls.com and consider buying one of the pass it on books. All proceeds are going to charity, and I promise you you will find them of great value.

SPEAKER_02 55:03

Sounds good. And we will be putting links to the website in our podcast and on social media. So again, thanks, Chief. Thanks. Thanks for uh what you're doing, Kevin. Appreciate it. Thank you. Well, folks, there you have it. Priceless words of wisdom from Chief Billy Goldfetter. I hope you enjoyed listening to Chief Goldfetter here in the weekend wrap-up, as much as I had chatting with him. As Chief stated, please check out Firefighter Closed Calls by typing firefighterclosedcalls.com in whatever web browser you're using. And from there, scroll down. And on the right side, you should see some cartoon images of Chief and his pass it on books. Simply click on any of those links to order a copy of what is truly an invaluable collection of wisdom and information that may make you laugh and could potentially save your life one day. For those wanting to reach out to Chief Goldfetter regarding grants to purchase equipment to properly clean turnout gear, washing machines, please send an email to us here at the weekend wrap-up. Our email address is podcast at afso21.com. That's podcast at afso21.com. And be sure to check out our parent company, afso21.com, where you can find more information about services that benefit fire protection and emergency services. Folks, before I sign off today, I want to share with you another milestone we achieved here at the weekend wrap-up. We were just recognized by Feed Spot as one of the top 15 fire protection and safety podcasts. In fact, we're number six. We want to thank each of our listeners and hope that you'll share this milestone with your friends and colleagues so that we can reach number one this year. With that, folks, as always, stay safe, keep listening, and until next time, we're out of here.